Accident legal Advice please

[Clint]

Hey Y'all

Long story, but here we go.

About a year ago my son was involved in an accident, (his fault) and his car was out of action while being repaired by the insurer. After asking all and sundry if he could borrow our cars and all of us saying no can do as we need them. My son's employer very kindly said he would add him to company insurance of the company Van whilst his car is out of action.

All with me so far.... Wait for it.

Well apparently, my son's boss couldn't get him on the company insurance as he hadn't had enough driving experience, so his boss very kindly forked out for some temporary insurance for 1 week for my son to drive the company vehicle, whilst awaiting his car to be repaired, so that my son could get into work.

Stay with me......

Now while driving the company van back to work at the end of the week after my son had got his car back, he had another accident! (don't ask, he's a thick git at times) and ended up writing off the company vehicle by pulling out of a T Junction without looking properly and getting T Boned by another vehicle.

No problem we thought as he's insured by the temporary cover...... Errrrr no! it ran out about 2 hours before the accident, at around 5.30 in the evening, accident was around 7.30pm.

So anyway, he did the right thing an gave his details to the poor guy that he pulled out on.

The temporary insurance after several months blew the claim out, saying he wasn't covered at the time of the accident, and said they would pass on the claim to the original insurer of the van, which is the company insurance.

We never heard anything for more months, and then my son received a phone call from the company insurance who said that the claim had been paid ( I assume by accident) and would he like to pay any money towards the claim. My son explained that he was, and still is earning £10 per hour and lives in a 2 bed council flat supporting his girlfriend and 2 kids and is on benefits and cant afford to pay anything. So they said ok thanks, and that was that.

Skip forward another 3 months to the other day, when my son receives a letter from DAC Beachcroft Claims ltd

Saying that  "They have been instructed by AXA (his boss's company car insurance co.) to recover their losses arising from the aforementioned incident.

And that they hold him responsible in negligence for their clients outlay in this matter"

" Details of their clients outlay shortly to follow, alternatively pass this letter onto his insurer to deal with the claim".

It then goes onto  say "Please accept this letter as formal notice Pursuant to section 151 and 152 of the Road traffic act 1988.

Should he choose to make an interim payment it may not cover the full amount claimed and they reserve the right to retain the payment on an interim basis whilst investigations continue and may still result in court proceedings.

So help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes he acknowledges that the accident was his fault, but he thought he was insured, as most insurances finish at midnight, not 5.30 in the afternoon.

So other than accepting full responsibility and offering to pay £10 per month which is all he could afford, especially as we don't know how much this claim could end up being.

What can we do to mitigate the situation?

 

Edited August 6, 2017 by Snuffs99
Changed text colour so it can be seen

[ktv303]

as far as i know the above act only states that insurers can withhold payment for an accident if theres an appeal or if the policy had been cancelled by mutual agreement.

its basically used in letters to scare you but means nothing in reality.

get him to get a hold of his boss and to look at the weeks cover. see if it has a finish time on it. it it doesnt he should be covered till midnight. 

[Clint]

Hi KTV

 

Sadly although my son has no longer got the paperwork for the temporary insurance,  once we were notified that he was not covered, I checked the temporary insurance paperwork and it did indeed have a finish time on it.

I'm guessing that My sons boss arranged it at 17:30 in the evening, and so that's why it ended at that time 7 days later.

I rang up DAC Beachcroft claims and they seemed quite reasonable, I explained that we are currently seeking legal advice and I also let them know that they are looking to get monies from someone on benefits earning £10 per hour supporting a wife and 2 kids, not a multi national Organisation or an insurance company.

They took my email address and said they would email over the details of costs when they get them?

I'm hoping to get one of the free debt advice companies to write a letter on my sons behalf to verify his very low income and suggest a low monthly repayment is all that is available, and that if they wish to proceed with any legal action, tis will result in court costs that will never be recouped?

 

I don't really know what else to do.

[ktv303]

ye its a bit shit mate but at the end of the day if he wasnt covered then he'll need to foot the bill.

if they do send him a bill there should be no need fir additional costs in the courts if he comes to an agreement with them to pay installments or whatever. 

they usually accept any reasonable offer.

[Clint]

Cheers KTV

Your advice is appreciated.

 

I rang up  DAC Beechcroft and they are going to email me details of cost when they get them.

Its just frustrating as he was insured at least twice, as he was insured to drive his car which was off the road for repairs, and he was insured on the company van that he had an accident in, but the insurance

had run out by a few hours.

Oh well, at least there is no sign as yet of any Criminal prosecution for driving without insurance!

[ktv303]

1 hour ago, Clint said:

 

Oh well, at least there is no sign as yet of any Criminal prosecution for driving without insurance!

doubt there will be mate as its purely an admin error somewhere. 

[goldringers]

Thats a wierd one , insured till 17:30 ? . If you take out insurance whether it be holiday or car it always states the day not time and it's too and from midnight of that date. 

So, if book late 7 day temp holiday insurance say on the 31st Aug 12noon and I leave on the 1st Sept my holiday insurance starts midnight of the 31st/1st Sept  and ends midnight 7th come the 8th if you get me drift. Never have I heard insurance to start at a particular time. 

say I were to book insurance from right there and then so the 31st Aug for 7 days at noon on the 31st I will lose 1/2 a day and it will run out 6th/7th midnight not noon on the 6th. I would look into that deeper if I were you, I have never heard of timed insurance to the second.

We had it on our car years ago,  we took out insurance mid day for 12 months and someone put a false claim in against us teatime hours before it was due to run. It didnt end mid day the same time we took it out , we lost 1/2 day if you know what I mean. My point been, if his boss took insurance out say Monday morning for 7 days lets just say on the 1st it will end 7th/8th midnight so the van would be insured for roughly 6 1/2 daysunless you state you want it to start "tomorrow" which would be from midnight the 2nd

Me ?, I think their talking bollocks m8 look into it

Edited September 12, 2017 by goldringers

[Clint]

Hey Goldy

Sadly its true.

 

Its not that unusual if you think of it.

Whenever I've got car insurance, especially a new policy, not a renewal. They always ask me what time you want it to start. or they say, your covered immediately.

I'm guessing my sons boss got the 7 day temporary policy and when asked when he would like it to start, he probably said "immediately". Then he gave the documents to my son and said. "There ya go,

you got a car to drive now for a week".

My son almost certainly, like most of us, didn't read the expiry of the policy, which would have been 7 days from when it was arranged.

 

That's how I see it, anyhow.

The only get out of Jail free, might be to put it back on his employer by saying that the duty to ensure that the company vehicle is insured at all times that it is being used is possibly his job.

However, the opposing argument could be that he wasn't carrying out work duties wen the accident happened?

 

The more I think about it the more complicated it gets.

 

I can confirm that I have seen a copy of the temporary insurance document and it does end at 17:30 in the evening.

 

Regards

 

Clint

[Snuffs99]

@goldringers

My insurance is valid till Oct 15th @ 12:30pm at which point i'll have to renew or get another insurer to cover me, i paid yearly and asked for it to be valid immediately from the time i bought it so to speak....which i suppose must have been 12:30pm

 

@Clint

Bit of a shitter for your son tbh mate, even if you tried the "blame the employer" route you'll probably be told that its up to the driver to make sure any vehicle they are using is road safe and insured etc. Unfortunately ignorance is no excuse in the eyes of the law.

[goldringers]

Well if the vehicle is owned by his boss/company and he is driving it on their behalf then it is up to the company not the driver to make sure everything is in place. So if you drive a bread van delivery van for AO.com do you ask "Er, is this insured ??" no, this is the responsibility of the company and will be held responsible for any problems that occur. Your son's names not on the doc's so he was told yes it's insured. 

 

Get your son to put this forward that the "owner" is responsible for the maintenance and upkeep of all documents for the van. What the law says and does and 2 different things it's how you put your side of the story over. I know that if it were me they'd stand no chance and my boss would cough up meaning I lose my job. Did your son know the actual time details of the insurance or just the day to day time period ?. Someone did and didn't say so how can that be your son's fault. Don't listen to some folk, their the back scratch crew who roll over and say there's nout I can do. 

If he didn't know he didn't know and if he did then he will have to pay. 

[goldringers]

I think your son should step up a gear and get some legal advise. His boss should have informed him what day/time it was to run out and if he didn't and let him drive "his" van then it's the boss's fault.

 

For insurance, s.143(3) of the RTA 1988 gives:


(3)A person charged with using a motor vehicle in contravention of this section shall not be convicted if he proves—

(a)that the vehicle did not belong to him and was not in his possession under a contract of hiring or of loan,

(b)that he was using the vehicle in the course of his employment, and

(c)that he neither knew nor had reason to believe that there was not in force in relation to the vehicle such a policy of insurance or security as is mentioned in subsection (1) above.

 

I 
 

Edited November 15, 2017 by goldringers

[Clint]

Hi Goldy

 

I've read your posts and as much as I can see the legality or responsibility of what your saying, Unfortunately he was not using the car strictly speaking at the time of the accident for work purposes.

He was driving the car back to work, but that was on his way back from his weekly football match that he plays in, that aside, the other thing to consider is that the Debt recovery agency isn't concerned the

reasons, legalities or ethics of the argument.

They just want the money.

As far as they are concerned, I can argue about it later.

Also if I don't pay and it goes to court, if it doesn't go in my sons favour, we will end up with court costs on top?

 

[goldringers]

On 15/11/2017 at 9:57 AM, Clint said:

Hi Goldy

 

I've read your posts and as much as I can see the legality or responsibility of what your saying, Unfortunately he was not using the car strictly speaking at the time of the accident for work purposes.

He was driving the car back to work, but that was on his way back from his weekly football match that he plays in, that aside, the other thing to consider is that the Debt recovery agency isn't concerned the

reasons, legalities or ethics of the argument.

 

 

He was driving back to work simples, whether he stops off for a MacDonalds or a pish he's taking it back to work on behalf of the company and therefor should be legally covered. Are you saying you are only insured if it's used actually in work hours ??. So he'll not be covered going to work ??. m8 it's a straight forward case of , the company failed to make sure the vehicle or did not inform him it was not covered. So what if he went the gym in the morning and had the accident on the way to work ? , not covered ??.

 

Me, all the feckin way I'd go with this. Get yourself a solicitor, pay £50 and get 1/2 hour with one. It seems to me you have already made the decision to cough up and save solicitor fee's because your convinced you'll lose anyway I know I wouldn't. Your reading far too much into it. They loaned him a vehicle without telling him it had no insurance, were's the hard bit to understand in that ?. The company failed not your son

 

[Clint]

Hey Goldy and all

 

Well the saga continues.

I had so much trouble getting hold of this Debt recovery agency, the person on the letter was always out the office, i left several voicemail messages over more than a few weeks never returned

this is after I had made an offer to settle for a lesser amount, pleading poverty, that they said they would put to AXA, who is the party involved.

Anyhow, I gave up chasing the debt recovery agency, and spent several hours on the phone trying to contact AXA directly.

Anyhow on day 2 of several phonecalls and an hour on the phone, I got a number for someone that actually knew what they were talking about.

The fact that they wanted proof of my story, with me sending them the temporary insurance certificate proving that the car was insured, and that it was a mistake as we thought it ended midnight, gives

me some hope that they are reconsidering the situation. Maybe taking what you've said (Goldy) that its maybe not my sons fault totally?

They asked me via email for proof of temporary insurance, and I laid out the story in full, and am waiting to hear back from them re this matter.

I'll post back when something happens.

 

Cheers

Clint

Edited December 9, 2017 by Clint

[goldringers]

Good to hear, you see, I have taken out loads of basic car insurance and I have yet dropped on one that's time start  finish specific other than midnight 12 bells as the start and end. Never have I seen a time date stamped unless requested say 5:30 on the 12/12/2017 etc. I would request a copy of the insurance policy and check were it states this time. Try online filling in a form and see if you can spot were you can pick your time rather than date.

The one rule though Clint, never make an offer, that's holding your hand up to something that might not be your fault

 

Edited December 12, 2017 by goldringers

[Clint]